Andy Coulouris: A Study In Pride & Politics

Saginaw's Freshest Face on the City Council

Talks About Hope for the City, the Need to Repeal the Tax Cap,

And What he Learned Taking Over Monica Lewinsky's Desk in Washington

By Robert E. Martin

Review:  How did you first get interested in politics?

Coulouris:  It was back when I was in Junior High School.  Dave Slaggert at

South School took us on a class trip to Washington, D.C. for four days to

go to the Clinton Inaugural in 1992.  That election was so spectacular,

given the 3rd Party involvement with Ross Perot, and I got very tuned into

politics at that point.

At age 14 or 15 it sparked a superficial interest in politics.  Then as

high school progressed into college, issues started to matter more to me

and I got a deeper appreciation for politics & government.

I attended the U of M and Ann Arbor is a progressive town with lots of

student activism.  By my senior year I was elected vice-president of the

Student Assembly.

Of all the people I associated with at college, I never played the role of

'student activist'. They were the ones with placards in the Diag and

megaphones and my role was more to help them figure how to get what they

wanted done through the administration. I was more like a political

quarterback and felt I had a knack for it. I wasn't good at marshalling the

troops, so I discovered an effective role.

Review:  Didn't you also work as a Student Intern at the White House?

Coulouris:  Yes, I interned at the White House in 1999 under Clinton.  I

was in the Office of Legislative Affairs and interned right at the White

House in the East Wing.

Most White House internships are horrible and I would never recommend my

kids do it because it's mostly 'busy work'.

Most interns work across the street, but I was right in the White House and

lucky enough to gain some proximity to the important people.

I put my neck out and told them I wrote well and they should put me to use,

so I'd respond to letters the President received from members of Congress

on low-level stuff like farm subsidies and the Roads Bill.  The cool thing

was that it gave me a chance to develop a new writing skill of articulating

things in a presidential manner.

Review: So what was it like working out of the White House?  Was it like

watching the West Wing?

Coulouris:  Yeah, only without the blue lighting.Politics is about personal

relationships and one thing that became obvious to me after 2 days in

Washington is that everyone knows everybody.   Washington is a small town

and I learned that politics in Washington is similar to small town politics

in the sense that everyone knows everything about everybody's business.

The network of connections is amazing and an effective politician knows how

to tap into those networks of people.  If you're out of the loop, you are

lost.

Review:  If you interned in the Clinton White House did you know Monica

Lewinsky?

Coulouris:  I was there after Monica. Actually, the desk and chair that I

had in the East Wing were Monica Lewinsky's desk and chair, no joke.

After her internship ended and she got a position in Legislative Affairs at

the White House, I worked in the same office she started at and was

assigned her desk and chair.  I didn't know it until I got there.

Review:  Obviously, local government is a microcosm on which everything is

built, so why didn't you go for County Commissioner instead of the Saginaw

City Council?

Coulouris:  All the issues that I'm interested in addressing are more aptly

addressed at the city level.  The County Commission deals more head-on with

the issue of urban sprawl than the city does, and that is one issue I'm

very interested in, but it's also the only thing they deal with that the

city doesn't.

I wish I could work on it because as a 'city kid', I've lived in Saginaw

all my life. My parents and grandparents live in the city and I believe in

urban agendas, only not in some tawdry left-wing way.

I mean that I believe in 'infield development' and the kinds of things you

are starting to see happen on Washington Avenue and in Old Town, which to

me are critical for the future of both our city and region.  Nationwide

cities are rotting cores and I don't think you correct that at the county

level, but more at the city level.

Review:  What would you say are your top three issues?

Coulouris:  The biggest thing for me is 'quality of life'.  We talk about

public safety, for instance, and say we want more cops and more firemen as

if we want them simply for the sake of more cops.  But actually the reason

we want them is for a higher quality of life.

I also believe we need a better and stronger parks system. And the reason

we want to see a thriving Old Town is again a quality of life issue.

It's a struggle for me at this point of my life to have dozens of friends

that I went to high school with that went away to college and now wonder if

they want to return to their hometown to live & raise a family.

Too often people dismiss these issues; but to me I want people to choose

Saginaw over Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, or Chicago.  The question we must

answer is how to attract and retain youth, because they are the taxpayers

of the future and bring jobs with them when they move here.

My second big issue is that of Neighborhoods.  Saginaw must be a city of

neighborhoods and we have many great natural areas such as Heritage Square

and the Cathedral district and Adams Boulevard that need to be fostered.

How do you get people to cut their grass and keep their streets clean &

safe and make them feel a part of something?  By creating this sense of

neighborhood.  The whole concept of neighborhood schools is empowering, and

I wish to emphasize that.

If the city is there to beautify a park it is a very small thing that

creates a tremendous yield on such expenditure.

Review:  Years ago I remember researching about how certain areas in the

city like Carmen Park and Fordney Park had dedicated monies left in trust

finds that were supposed to be spent on those specific areas.  But now that

doesn't happen.  Now it goes right into the general fund.

Coulouris:  I don't know about that.

Review: But it does interplay into my next question, which is given the

financial situation of the city, how do you attract or retain people when

you've got a lot of these problems that have gone beyond the percolation

point?

Coulouris:  It's important to know the reason that Saginaw is in the

position it is financially.  First, we're not going to end up like Flint

because we balance the budget every year.

The entire hubbub about a $3.9 million deficit is true because we are

cleaning our house. But we can only cut so much and provide the level of

service that we do.

Saginaw is a full-service city.  We have to make tough choices and cannot

do so 'matter-of-factly'. Are we going to get rid of parks & recreation

completely?  Are we going to quit funding housing inspections?  These to me

are core services that you provide, so consequently you have to devise a

financial structure with enough revenue to provide those services.

If we can't do this, you'll see an exodus of people from the city.  I mean,

how do you get young people starting careers that can't afford a house yet

but want affordable apartments on the one hand, and on the other cut

housing inspections?  It's untenable and you have to provide those services

to attract people.

Strong urban planning has to be a key strategy to provide a style of living

that is suitable for 20 and 30-somethings.  Once you land people, generally

you can keep them.  It is an obvious centerpiece and starting point if

we're going to move in a positive direction.

Review:  One problem is that the age of the city's housing is such that it

creates a different set of issues.

Coulouris:   And it doesn't help with development reaching out 20 miles

from the City of Saginaw, because that depresses real estate values.

To me that tendency to increase housing stock rather than rehabilitate

existing stock is one important question that the County Commission comes

into play with.

Vision 20/20 has this Planning Task Force on Land Use.  Right now it looks

like a quiltwork.

All these counties are putting together what their land use proposals are,

and for the most part it equals a lot of low-density residential use.  That

is going to kill this region, not only because are you getting rid of all

the farmland, but you have to build more roads and that taxes your

infrastructure more, not to mention the environmental damage.

Everybody right now is talking about the quality of water in the region,

but if you want to meaningfully address that you have to address urban

sprawl.  The challenge is how does the City of Saginaw attract these

developers?  We have a good track record in the past year of bringing

developers into the city and we need to keep that alive, because infield

development is crucial for the success of not just the city but the entire

region.

Review:  Is there anything you feel government could do that they're not

doing to refurbish properties in the city?

Coulouris:  In an ideal world we'd have one person to exploit city, state

and federal resources for grants, and we kind of have that now, only it's

tri-furcated several ways.  We have Tim Dempsey at DDA who is doing a

fantastic job, and Bridget Smith in Housing that are both young & sharp

urban planners.  Then we have Tom Miller as the 'old hand' that knows how

everything works and fits together.

The city wants to create this one stop shop for developers.  But another

issue is 'clearing title'.  If the city could be better at assisting people

with that process, it might help.  You're seeing that with the Ippel

Building right now.

Review: There are a lot of vacancies growing in the city, though.  That

isn't a good sign.

Coulouris:  No, Saginaw won't be what it was years ago. The trick and

question is are we going to make it something new or not.  Will we roll

with the punches and tide or sit back and continue reducing the size of the

city, dismantling city services, and letting us bleed to death?

Review:  But if we wanted to conserve our resources, wouldn't there be more

cooperation between the County and the City?  I see an awful lot of

duplication of service that has gone on for years.

Coulouris:  Yes, on that note, I think it is one thing the city has failed

at.  I was largely critical of the City until I got on council and saw

things from a different angle.

One thing I am still critical of is the city's ability to be a player at

the state and federal level.  To me it is inexcusable for the city not to

be working with our representatives in Lansing and Washington more.  Partly

that is the fault of the city and partly that is the fault of the

individuals working in Lansing and Washington.

The efforts of the three levels of government are supposed to be

coordinated, and the Feds offer a tremendous amount of support for cities.

Under Engler a lot of that got shored up, but it's still out there and

other cities are getting it and we are not at that level we should be.  We

need to address that.

Review:  But isn't the tendency of the County to follow the greed and look

at areas already profitable like Frankenmuth and Birch Run?

Coulouris:  True, but I'm eyeing Lansing & Washington.  Where is our help?

Where is Saginaw's piece of the pie?

The county often ignores the City of Saginaw and vice versa. I think it's a

two way street. As much as I'm a huge proponent of the city and would love

to see $300,000 homes built in the city, I also realize the value of those

homes being built in Thomas Township to the County.  But think the City has

to make a more concerted effort at getting its share.

Review:  A big problem is apathy and the fact that people are very

mistrustful of city leaders.

Coulouris:  I don't blame people for not trusting City Hall.  In fact, I

think that's the job of a citizen in a democracy - to be distrustful of

government.

But it doesn't obviate the fact that I should be out there leading the

public.  I believe removing the Tax Cap, for instance, is the salvation of

the city.  If we don't lift it you're going to see the City of Saginaw

severely dismantled in five years and it will look radically different.

My job as a public official is to take this issue to the public.  If they

don't believe me, that's a reflection of my job as a leader.

Review:  What is your impression of the current city council?  A lot of

people complain that the caliber is low.

Coulouris:  I think that council is in the process of stepping up to the

plate.  Maybe it's because I am new, but I think we work pretty well

together.

Review:  Well, for someone that has followed city politics for two decades

now, I can tell you that the fragmentation is what tears the city apart.

For years it's been nothing but these 6-3 votes on crucial issues and

unwillingness to compromise.  I mean the very definition of politics is the

art of compromise.

Coulouris:  I certainly think Council is a body of 9 people with 9 slightly

different agendas. In reality, or our own minds, we represent certain

interests.  Whether I like it or not, the things I want to see happen are

probably different than the things Carol Cottrell or Dan Soza or Roma

Thurin want to see happen.  But that doesn't mean its irreconcilable.

Right now I think you're seeing council compromising and rallying around

this whole issue of the tax cap.

Review:  Well then, let's talk about the tax cap, seeing as I helped in the

fight against lifting it last time around.

For years money has gone in directions throughout this city that is

frivolous and spent on anything but providing essential services.   Fees

are always rising in the city for something or other and the public

perception is that the city squanders money on a lot of travel, sister city

relationships, and on fashioning golden retirement plans for themselves.

Fair or not, that is the perception.  What are your impressions?

Coulouris:  It should come up.  I don't fault anybody for being skeptical

or cynical about government, and I believe in watchdogs.

I can say this. From what I've seen and in studying what cuts have been

made in the city for the past five years, is there fat?  Of course. Every

organization has it.  Is it fat that you can trim?  I guess, if you want to

save $12,000 here or there.

It's down now to not trimming fat but cutting off limbs.  We don't have a

lot of options. In an operation like the city manpower is the biggest

expense. Personnel are where all the money goes.  If you take public

safety, for example, people don't realize how much each police officer

costs in terms of salary and training. It's something like $75,000  -

$80,000, which is a lot of money.

The Japanese pay for half of that teahouse. It has no nails in it, so their

engineers come over and maintain it and we spend $12,000 for trips to Japan

every couple of years when they send 50 engineers over.

Review:  But then you've got Zapopan and all the Nigerian excursions.

Coulouris:  Yes, but I think we'll be moving to privatize those

expenditures, so if the community feels that is something they wish to

support, they can make donations to it.

Review:  But Andy, if you have any hope of getting that tax cap lifted you

must provide more than lip service.   People need concrete examples, just

as concrete examples of the waste has been articulated.  And another issue

is this whole topic of abatements.  Why should corporations be paying no

taxes with taxpayers footing the entire bill?

Coulouris:  I think cities everywhere have missed the boat on abatements.

When one business enters into a contract with another business, if they

don't perform the services they pledge, the other party either doesn't pay

or gets their money back.

The city needs to do the same.  If a corporation promises x million in

capital investment or promises so many jobs and doesn't follow through, I

think the contract should say that the city gets the abatement back.

This is a new way of thinking on abatements that is catching on across the

country in lots of cities and Saginaw should do the same.

There is no need for 12-year abatements. Smaller and shorter periods should

be used.  But on the other hand, indigenous corporations and local

individuals investing in their own community that won't likely skip town in

five years are the people I want to help out.

The small businesses and local investors and developers are a priority for

me. It is true though, that the way it is now, abatements amount to

corporate welfare and not something I genuinely agree with.

But another problem is the race to the bottom. Cities across Michigan are

all trying to beat each other out to give the best package deal to these

corporations, so it isn't a pleasant situation.

Review:  Okay.  Let's talk about some of the positive things going on in

Saginaw.  What are the three best things the city has going?

Coulouris:  On the quality of life issue, one would be the package going on

with the Children's Zoo and the Art Museum.  Both are two real anchors to

our community and each is big investment.

Sheila Redmond at the Art Museum is a fabulous person for the city to have.

The improvements going on at the Zoo and Museum are the kind of visual

things that send a big signal and are important.

Secondly, I think the development of South Washington and the medical

community convening around St. Mary's and Covenant are very positive.  The

medical corridor is the next big thing for Saginaw because it makes it a

destination place and brings in high quality jobs and a diverse work force,

which lends well to an economically stable city.

The third thing I'm excited about is Old Town Saginaw. When I was just

starting college the place to go was Bay City, but not anymore. Now people

from other cities are coming to Saginaw.

With the new Hockey team coming downtown and the improvements at the Civic

Center, I think you'll see a natural synthesis of entertainment centers

between the East and West side.  Overall it is good. New investors are

coming into the area and new restaurants are springing up in Old Town,

which again is a quality of life issue.

Review:  What about our next City Manager.  Should the council select

someone from Saginaw or from outside the area?

Coulouris:  I think we should be choosing within.  There are a few people

in the administration that I would like to see go for City Manager.  I

think it's costly to do the search given our current state of affairs in

Saginaw with the budget and tax cap.

Plus, I think we'll have a hard time finding someone with experience that

is also in tune with what is going on that is still on the upward swing of

their career.  Most likely if we go outside the city we'll get candidates

at the end of their careers or beginning their careers, and thus

inexperienced.

And to my mind the learning curve is too steep.  I'm thoroughly impressed

with the brains at City Hall.  People may laugh, but we have a lot of

dedicated and smart people.  A few of them would be tremendous managers and

wouldn't need to worry about that steep learning curve. They could get to

work right away.

Given everything happening in Saginaw now, we need a Manager with a steady

hand and someone that the business community can trust. We have known

quantities in Saginaw and they get it and know the place and how it works

and that is what's valuable.  But my guess is by October 1st we'll have a

new manager in place.

Review:  What was your impression of former City Manager Reed Phillips?

Was he a good manager?

Coulouris:  There is surprising division on that question, but to me I

think Reed was extraordinarily sensitive to the various contours of Saginaw

politics.  Reed knew a lot about a lot of things in the city and largely

this was because he worked his way up.

He wasn't the most savvy Manager politically, but that's okay because his

strengths lay elsewhere.  At times he could have been a more effective

communicator, but his technical expertise was unmatched.

Reed was a technocrat and served the city well in many respects.  Now we

have Bill Bailey at the helm who is not a technocrat but a communicator, so

we're seeing two styles of leadership that are back-to-back different.

I have a lot of respect for both Reed and Bill.  In fact, a good City

Manager would be a blending of the two.